Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expensive?

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Are Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expensive?

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kazenorin
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Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expensive?

Post by kazenorin »

I would like to share the experience of my first CapLab game before I move on with the topic,
below are some of the settings the game:
  • 7 Cities in the 1990s with Inflation
    30 Competitors
    Very Low Start-up capital for everyone
    Very High competence of local competitors
    1 Seaport per city, 1 non-constantly supplied low-quality product per seaport
That was to simulate hostile competitive environment...

So as a result, most of my competitors cannot survive - I can't really survive either.
(I must admit that I'm not a very good player)

I got on track by establishing a leather farm, getting AI players to buy them, producing leather goods, made money, survived for 30 years (that's not important).

At around 2020, only two fairly large corporations were left, both were leather goods specialists - and my corporation was the leather supplier. Most of the remaining 29 competitors were either bankrupt and restarted, or in the amidst of bankruptcy.

I wanted to move onto another industry at this point. Realizing my specialty was cosmetic products, I wanted to try starting to produce the easier perfume.

Perfume requires Glass and Chemical minerals, and glass is manufactured using silica. No one was mining them, seaports are not reliable and they're not selling it anyways.
Then I saw these land prices - $800,000,000 for a chemical mineral mine and $500,000,000 for a silica mine (Inflation was at around 600%).

My company was making $150M at that time, making it fairly impossible to do anything else rather than continuing on producing farmed products.

I started a new game with the same settings to check the land prices, silica and chemical mineral site land prices were fairly consistent at around $100M, more or less the prices for an oil mine (actually, oil mines were actually slightly cheaper)

Below are some prices for your reference:
Silica: $55M, $62M, 70M, $90M, $90M, $100M, $100M; Average: $81M
Chemicals: $84M, $100M, $110M, $125M, $125M, $140M, $172M; Average: $122M
Oil: $106M, $90M, $87M, $134M, $94M; Average: $102M
Coal: $14M, $10M, $11M, $15M, $12M, $13M, $11M; Average: $12M
Iron: $10M, $9M, $10M, $7M, $7M, $9M; Average: $9M

Silver, Gold, Timber and Aluminum were around the $30M - $40M range

That makes chemicals the most expensive mineral to mine.

I started a new game in Cap2 to compare prices, Silica and Chemical Minerals were around 2M, sometimes up into the $10M range if they are huge deposits.

I understand that it was a "Improvement" as mentioned here:
http://www.capitalismlab.com/natural-resources.html

To prevent having too much supply of raw materials flooding the market, the cost of acquiring a new natural resource increases significantly as the number of sites in existence increases, thus making it harder for companies to keep acquiring new natural resource sites in an attempt to monopolize the industry.

But then, I can't even acquire the first site, where comes monoploy?

I therefore think that the price of acquiring new sources of raw materials must be reduced.
It became kind of boring in my game where no one can produce anything other than leather goods.

For those interested in the situation of my game, you get grab my save file here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32908624/CapLab/GARY_002.SAV
Last edited by kazenorin on Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David
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Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by David »

We will like to see more feedback on this subject from other testers.

If the majority of the players find the natural resource sites too expensive, we may reduce the prices.

You may also set up a poll on this thread.
Inarius
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by Inarius »

Well, i haven't had this issue for now.

It's true that natural resources are costly. Actually, they are more and more costly and that's fair.

I have never seen the price you tell me.
However, it's true that i never saw such an inflation. It never reaches more than 10% in my games.


Generally it's quite good to build mines or logging camps. Because everybody uses them so as they don't all want (or can) spend 100M in a mine, you can set a quite high price for your iron/oil/wood/whatever.
I never lost money with this.
mwyeoh
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Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:05 am

Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by mwyeoh »

kazenorin wrote:Below are some prices for your reference:
Silica: $55M, $62M, 70M, $90M, $90M, $100M, $100M; Average: $81M
Chemicals: $84M, $100M, $110M, $125M, $125M, $140M, $172M; Average: $122M
Oil: $106M, $90M, $87M, $134M, $94M; Average: $102M
Coal: $14M, $10M, $11M, $15M, $12M, $13M, $11M; Average: $12M
Iron: $10M, $9M, $10M, $7M, $7M, $9M; Average: $9M
These are usually the sort of prices I see
They definitely are expensive to begin with, so at the beginning to get any of those resources, we have to rely either on seaports or an AI starting a mine on one of those

Ive never really gone into mining in a game so I dont know what sort of income streams they offer. Might have to play around with it and see how I go
Inarius
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Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by Inarius »

I agree. After retesting it, it's true that it's hard to make profit with silica and CM mines.

On the other hand, these mines have generally a lot more reserves than Iron or coal. More than 100 000 tons. It's can be normal that the price is higher.

We should calculate the price per tons.
kazenorin
Level 3 user
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:05 am

Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by kazenorin »

mwyeoh wrote:
kazenorin wrote:Below are some prices for your reference:
Silica: $55M, $62M, 70M, $90M, $90M, $100M, $100M; Average: $81M
Chemicals: $84M, $100M, $110M, $125M, $125M, $140M, $172M; Average: $122M
Oil: $106M, $90M, $87M, $134M, $94M; Average: $102M
Coal: $14M, $10M, $11M, $15M, $12M, $13M, $11M; Average: $12M
Iron: $10M, $9M, $10M, $7M, $7M, $9M; Average: $9M
These are usually the sort of prices I see
They definitely are expensive to begin with, so at the beginning to get any of those resources, we have to rely either on seaports or an AI starting a mine on one of those

Ive never really gone into mining in a game so I dont know what sort of income streams they offer. Might have to play around with it and see how I go
Relying on seaports, that's what I figured.

Though with the setting "1 Seaport per city, 1 non-constantly supplied low-quality product per seaport",
seaports aren't that viable,
they rarely produce raw materials long enough to support long term manufacturing,
not to mention that they might not stock silica and chemical minerals at all...

In the setting of my game,
AIs struggle for existence like fish,
most fail to survive and a few does...
The few usually are those to rely on farmed products...
So none invests on mining raw materials like aluminum, silica, CM, gold, silver...
Making it impossible to enter the manufacturing of most industries.
kazenorin
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:05 am

Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by kazenorin »

Inarius wrote:I agree. After retesting it, it's true that it's hard to make profit with silica and CM mines.

On the other hand, these mines have generally a lot more reserves than Iron or coal. More than 100 000 tons. It's can be normal that the price is higher.

We should calculate the price per tons.

I believe there should be a cheaper alternative to this,
like a smaller silica/CM mining site (i.e. less reserves, and perhaps lower quality) which costs about the same as an iron/timber site,
so at least industries can start up without the reliance on seaports...

All to say, silica/CM sites being more expensive than oil sites is not so rational in my opinion...
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David
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Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by David »

We will bring in more beta testers next week and will be able to collect more feedback (votes to the poll) which will shed light on whether the cost should be lowered.
Inarius
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Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by Inarius »

No !

Small Iron (40 000t) et coal mines are a pain. You have to build new mines very often because the AI open very few mines.
I would prefer that all the mines and lodges uses 100 000t of reserve and are around 50-100 M to build.
Perhaps David, you should create AI oriented on natural resources ? Big investment, long-term profitability.

I think that's a real problem for now.

I can make huge amount of money just because of this. I explain :

- There is 3 timber lodges. As there is a lot of demand, they are put in "internal sales". I build a lodge and max the price ( until -100 quality).
But everybody continue to buy my wood. I can make about 1B of $ with every lodge. Just because the AI is flawed and don't build lodges.
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David
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Re: Silica and Chemical Mineral mines land prices too expens

Post by David »

Small Iron (40 000t) et coal mines are a pain. You have to build new mines very often because the AI open very few mines.
I would prefer that all the mines and lodges uses 100 000t of reserve and are around 50-100 M to build.
Perhaps David, you should create AI oriented on natural resources ? Big investment, long-term profitability.

I think that's a real problem for now.
Iron and coal mines' reserve quantities will be doubled in the next version. You may test and see if it needs further increases.
I can make huge amount of money just because of this. I explain :

- There is 3 timber lodges. As there is a lot of demand, they are put in "internal sales". I build a lodge and max the price ( until -100 quality).
But everybody continue to buy my wood. I can make about 1B of $ with every lodge. Just because the AI is flawed and don't build lodges.
Please send me a saved game for investigation.
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